CYOF10?

[Shard]

What with CYOF Online coming up, I suppose that there isn't much need for another forum-based CYOF...

On the other hand, I thoroughly enjoyed how much more you had to think in this variant. Looking at enemy ships and techs to find weaknesses, adapting real battle strategies to your vessel specifications, fixed ship-building quotas put aside from resources... and let's face it, you can't really convert this into something like LE's project.

9 wasn't perfect, but I for one would like to see another using this type of ruleset at some point in the future... hell, I'd even set it up if there's enough interest!

So what's everyone else's opinion?

[Lord Emperor]

For sure, CYOF Online beta won't be up till late January, and the final version probably even later. There's still much work for me to do and I have no idea how much free time will I have, with my final year at school and trying to get to a college and all that. If anyone feels he has enough free time and dedication to run another forum CYOF, do it, I'll gladly join!


BTW, get Wraith here, he'd enjoy this, if he's not too busy with EVE of course

[Gunblader]

Just do it here, its my website. I could rewrite the rules to make them more balanced.

and just to make sure not one person is in control, aka ADMIN position, I'm going to make a CYOF counsil, so instead of the Admin being in charge, the player will be. Voting time baby!

[Shard]

*prods back to life* Since the commitee seems to have been created now, I guess I ought to put in my main suggestion. There are others, but just fairly trivial niggles that I'll leave to the leadership...

That suggestion is as follows: sort out the factions! CYOF 9 was made rather strange by the inclusion of the necessity to deal with the Miners' Guild, a fact stated nowhere in the rules and only slipped in as a 'by the way'. Similarly, only the CF could build Jump Gates. Everyone else was kind of left out in the cold; since combat etc. was all customised between factions anyway, it had less of an effect than it would have done in the CYOF Online style ruleset, but it is a little odd having two factions with special abilities and the rest without, especially considering the relatively even faction strengths.

[thecreator]

Also lets not have a certain faction controlling double the amount of stations then everyone else in the beginnning?

"but it is a little odd having two factions with special abilities and the rest without, especially considering the relatively even faction strengths."

I agree, Houses should have some special ability perhaps "Intelligence", Houses have large intelligence agencies and therefore know more then the other factions.

PS. If we all go trough with a CYOF 10, I claim Liberty now.

[Lord Emperor]

Factions should be different and complement each other in some way - that's why the CYOF 5 ruleset (@ Spike: that's actually the original one, CYOF 6, 7, 8 and now Online are based on it) introduced faction bonuses and unique units. However, in such a free enviroment, it's quite hard to make up some abilities that wouldn't be either unnecessary or overpowered. Instead, I suggest that among the techs every faction has, it could have one modifying some aspect of the rules - e.g. more fighters produced, or cheaper bases, or something - of course, it would have to be agreed by the judges first to prevent imbalancing the game.

Also, the current factions should be split up into smaller ones, e.g. as it was in... I think CYOF 4: Liberty corporations, BR corporations, RH pirates, etc. with every faction controlling 5-10 bases and the others NPC, with some meaning to get them, i.e. blitzing. That would prevent the quick exponential growth we have all seen in CYOF 9.

And the final, small but important thing: define exactly rules about placing ships on specific bases versus in the entire system. So far, about everyone does it differently, and in battles it seems like all forces are just summed up anyway. I am facing this problem in CYOF:O too, and I am inclined to completely restricting ship placement only within systems, i.e. the forces on different bases aren't specified. That way, any battle is quickly resolved with attacker's ships versus defender's ships in the system being attacked.



Oh, and I claim Rheinland. Just because I can.

<edit> don't even think about nerfing it in advance ;D

[Shard]

Oh, and that reminds me...

Ship placement rules! Creator and one or two other people (I forget who) simply took the whole mass of their produced ships and placed them where they wished regardless of where the production facilities were. I (and I think GB among others) produced ships from their respective bases. Some sort of definition of exactly which is the right method is needed, methinks... I'd personally vote for the latter, based purely from an RP perspective.

And I agree about the exponential growth problem that showed up in 9; your battlefleets consisted of 4000 SHFs at the very least, a bit OTT by any standards.

I like your idea about specific faction techs modifying the rules; one of the reasons why I loved playing the Outcasts in 8 was that I could effectively have entire systems of hidden bases. It was only because of all those that I managed to hold off Hawk's battlefleet - it took them huge amounts of time to find any of them, and meanwhile I was generating a counter attack. I'm not saying that the hidden bases should be resurrected, but the fact that Houses couldn't build them made an interesting twist. *collects thoughts from the mess* I think there should be something imposed as opposed to the players creating it themselves, though; for example, by the end, everyone had cloaking devices, a slightly silly state of affairs... gah, it's too late for my brain to function sufficiently to extend that to a suggestion, but you get the idea.

As a final quibble: production rates. If a planet can only produce 12 SHF wings a turn, how come a small shipyard can produce the (potentially superior) SS at a rate of 16 a turn?

[Gunblader]

I dunno. Like I said, I didn't write these rules, just borrowed them. But I will be making some major changes to them.

[Gunblader]

Well I was making major changes to them. But then I remembered I wasn't rulemaster. So Jacob needs to make me rulemaster for anything to happen.

[Shard]

*after some consideration, claims Miners' Guild*

[thecreator]

"Ship placement rules! Creator and one or two other people (I forget who) simply took the whole mass of their produced ships and placed them where they wished regardless of where the production facilities were. I (and I think GB among others)"

That is a good idea, the only problem is in the late game you might have over 80 shipyards and so it would be very time consuming for anyone else to find out where you built X ships and where. It could be simpler just having that stations in one system build ships that then "appear" in that system. No need to specify which shipyard built what to save time.

Another thing that would be good to have would be a "guide" for your turn. I know that Jacob used to be the first one to post his turn before and everyone else simply followed his example. So you get everything on the turn ("battles" for instance, that did not come until mid game.)

[Shard]

thecreator said:

That is a good idea, the only problem is in the late game you might have over 80 shipyards and so it would be very time consuming for anyone else to find out where you built X ships and where. It could be simpler just having that stations in one system build ships that then "appear" in that system. No need to specify which shipyard built what to save time.

...which is what I did for my turns... but do you mean do the collective total produced by a system, rather than by each individual base? That could work... it did get pretty nightmarish in Lamda 35 with 18 stations and 17 shipyards

thecreator said:

Another thing that would be good to have would be a "guide" for your turn. I know that Jacob used to be the first one to post his turn before and everyone else simply followed his example. So you get everything on the turn ("battles" for instance, that did not come until mid game.)

Yes. That's exactly what is needed! Half the problems in the last CYOF were due to everyone doing their turns differently, each with different emphases and interpretations of the rules.

[Shard]

Ok. 24 hours of heavy thought, and I think I might have the faction bonuses sorted out... but it relies on another new rule. See what you think. The numbers are just suggestions.

Fuel and Munitions Production
Each station produces a certain amount of fuel and munitions each turn. This is represented by a solid number, as opposed to a value like economy points; a population limit, if you like. This can be traded between factions. Once either of the limits is reached, ship production ceases.

Munitions represents the surplus of metal from the production of ships and stations devoted to weapons production. As well as the absolute limit, the munitions limit also results in 'slow down' of ship production, as the wrangles of getting sparser munitions around the fleet kicks in. When the total munitions consumed by a fleet equals the 75% of the total munitions available, each ship production facility reduces to the level below: Large shipyards produce like Small shipyards, Planets like Large stations, Large stations like Small stations, and both Small stations and shipyards have their production values halved. If for any reason, the total number of munitions consumed exceeds that produced:
Up to 25% exceeded: combat effectiveness is reduced by 25%
Up to 50% exceeded: combat effectiveness is reduced by 50%
Over 50% exceeded: combat effectiveness is reduced by 75%
Note that you cannot stockpile munitions, as any excess will be used for training exercises and lost. If you have no munitions, of course, your ships cannot fight!
You may choose to 'disarm' ships. If you do, they cannot fight, but consume no munitions.

Fuel represents the total H-fuel produced by your faction not devoted to keeping the reactors of your stations running. There is no 'slow down' of ship production for fuel, as fuel distribution is somewhat easier to deal with. If for any reason, the total fuel consumed exceeds that produced, the following effects take place:
Up to 25% exceeded: ships are reduced to a maximum of 2 jumps per turn.
Up to 50% exceeded: ships are reduced to a maximum of 1 jump per turn, and cannot use cruise engines or highly energy demanding technology. Admin decision if techs should be disabled by this if necessary.
Over 50% exceeded: ships are dead in space, power directed to maintaining critical systems. They cannot fight or move if attacked.
Fuel cannot be stockpiled either, as the H-fuel is highly unstable and liable to decompose if not used quickly. Note that you cannot remove fuel supplies from ships.

Type	Fuel consumed	Munitions consumed
LF	0.4	0.4
HF	0.5	0.5
VHF	0.6	0.6
SHF	1	1
SS	0.6	0.6
LS	0.75	0.75
CL1	1	1
CL2	4	4
CL3	16	16
CL4	32	32

Type	Fuel produced	Munitions produced
Small station	20	20
Large station	30	30
Planet	40	40
Small shipyard	20	20
Large shipyard	30	30

Faction Bonuses
Houses: The huge supply lines and organisation needed to run one of the four most powerful entities in Sirius are a great aid in times of war, whether hot or cold. Liberty, Rheinland, Kusari and Bretonia are not subject to munitions 'slow down' of ship production.

Miner's Guild: The Miners get a 50% bonus to fuel and munitions produced:

Type	Fuel produced	Munitions produced
Small station	30	30
Large station	45	45
Planet	60	60
Small shipyard	30	30
Large shipyard	45	45

Revolutionary Union: The RU have had a lot of practice in causing supplies to be 'mislaid' even during times of peace with their antagonists. The RU gets 5 munitions and fuel for each station belonging to an opposing faction in the same system as one of their own. Note that since this is subtle extraction from many sources, this is not actually deducted from that produced for the opposing player. *not sure about this one*

Corsairs: The extreme supply problems recently experienced by the Corsairs has taught them a lot about rationing their resources.

Type	Fuel consumed	Munitions consumed
LF	0.3	0.3
HF	0.4	0.4
VHF	0.5	0.5
SHF	0.75	0.75
SS	0.5	0.5
LS	0.6	0.6
CL1	0.75	0.75
CL2	3	3
CL3	12	12
CL4	24	24

Outcasts: *not decided*

Corporate Federation: *not decided*

In addition, a faction may choose ONE of the following traits:

Fighter overlord: This faction believes in fighter power to the exclusion of all else. They get Fighter Shipyards that cost 15 points and produce 20 munitions/fuel (30 for MG), 2 points and 30 LF/24 HF/16 VHF/12 SHF per turn. However, Small shipyards cost 15 points and Large shipyards may not be built at all.

Capital overlord: This faction considers fighters to be useless, meat shields at best. Power is achieved through the raw power of the warship. They get Shipyard Complexes that cost 20 points and produce 20 munitions/fuel (30 for MG), 2 points and 1.5 CL4/3 CL3/ 6 CL2/12 CL1/ 24 LS/ 48 SS per turn. However, fighter production reduces to the level below: Planets like Large stations, Large stations like Small stations, and Small stations have their production values halved. If munitions 'slow down' ensues, all values are halved again.

Economic behemoth: The production of fleets and weapons costs money, so riches bring victory! All economic point production is doubled. However, devoting this amount of a station to producing money is to the detriment of ship production. All ship production is halved.

Cover the stars: Seeing an entire horizon covered with the enemy is a psychological blow, quite apart from the power of getting hit by that many enemies. Among the ship details, this faction may declare that a class will be a 'swarm' class. Production values for it are doubled. However, their power must be halved in some way. Admin decision if necessary.

Iron fist: What's worse than getting attacked by a CL4? Getting attacked by a double-size CL4. Among the ship details, this faction may declare that a class will be an 'Iron fist' class. Production values for it are halved. The power for it may be doubled, however. Admin decision if necessary.

The right tool for the job: This faction has a highly varied battlefleet, with a vessel for every situation. They have two more ship types than normal. They must be declared to be part of one of the normal ship types (LF, HF etc.) for ship production values. However, they must be differentiated from the normal type. Here are some suggested synonyms...
LF = F
HF = BF
VHF = VBF
SHF = UHF
SS = GB
LS = CA
CL1 = BC
CL2 = BB
CL3 = DN
CL4 = HDN

[thecreator]

It seems to me a bit complicated with the whole fuel thing, its a good idea but perhaps simplify it. Maybe you have to a have a minimum amount of fuel or nothing works instead of what you have now. It all seems too complicated and not everyone would have the time to calculate these sort of things. Good idea though it just needs some tinkering with.

[Shard]

Yeah, I had a feeling that it wasn't ideal. I tried to simplify it already by making it more like a population limit than a resource like points... but I suppose I ruined the effect with the percentage effects. How do you like the faction bonuses though?